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Sorcery/Theism Changes. Balanced or not?

Sorcery/Theism Changes. Balanced or not?

Postby Morvar » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:41 am

Hello!

First of all, sorry for my bad English!
In my homebrew Fantasy World are 3 different Kinds of Magic.
Two of them use “the Source” on a direct and indirect way.
Mages get Power directly from “The Source”.
People with “True Faith” get Power from the Gods, who take the Power from “The Source” and modify them with their Spirit.
The last one use their inner strength to push their body and mind over the human spectrum.

In RQ6 Terms I want to use Mysticism for the last one.
Sorcery for Mages and Theism for “True Faith”.
But here is my Problem:

Because Mages and Priest use the Same Source on different ways, it is not logically to me, that Priests are so mighty (Magnitude = Devotion/10) against Sorcerer.
And Priest only get their Pool for casting back, if they are in a holy place….
Both doesn’t fit to my world. A worshipper of the Sun God should be able to go on a quest in the darkness…

What if both (sorcerer/Priest) get the same MP Regeneration? And on the other side, Mages get Magnitude in the same way like Priests. But Priest get an additional +1 for all Miracles and +2 on holy ground?

I hope you understand what I mean. I apologize again for my bad English.
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Re: Sorcery/Theism Changes. Balanced or not?

Postby azrooh » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:50 pm

Hi Morvar, have you played a game with these magic systems as written? They're already very powerful, and removing the restrictions keeping them in check risks rendering mundane characters useless.

Abilities and spells for magic users, clerics, and monks from Classic Fantasy might fit your game without such a sharp increase in power level.
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Re: Sorcery/Theism Changes. Balanced or not?

Postby Jefferiot » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:35 pm

azrooh wrote:Hi Morvar, have you played a game with these magic systems as written? They're already very powerful, and removing the restrictions keeping them in check risks rendering mundane characters useless.

For some campaigns, that's desirable. He may be running a campaign where all of the PCs use magic and everyone who doesn't use magic is the peons.

axrooh wrote:Abilities and spells for magic users, clerics, and monks from Classic Fantasy might fit your game without such a sharp increase in power level.

Yes, Classic Fantasy has a lot of ideas on customizing RuneQuest 6 in it, which could help creativity when designing a custom magic system for a non-classic fantasy campaign.
Who to be or not to be. That is the question. --Jeffspeare
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Re: Sorcery/Theism Changes. Balanced or not?

Postby Morvar » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:28 pm

Thx for the answers!

@azrooh
I have played Runequest 3 in the german version from WDS (Welt der Spiele). We never had a problem with too powerful mages. Mundane Characters like Thieves and Warriors had their Highlights.

@Jefferiot

No, in my campaign are only a few Mages/Clerics. 5 players ...but only one Mage.

But back to my question. Is the answer: Try it? Make Playtesting? Or has someone more experience about this?
I had played Gurps. But this is to....much....for me...an my time...

Thanx again for your answers.
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Re: Sorcery/Theism Changes. Balanced or not?

Postby Jefferiot » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:14 pm

If your table isn't familiar with D&D, then I don't necessarily recommend Classic Fantasy. As you said, you don't have much time for re-inventing, so you'd prefer something ready to go. I think you said that you're used to using a version of RuneQuest 3 but you want to use magic systems that I didn't know or forget (perhaps since I used RQ3 for Glorantha) were in RuneQuest 3. I think standard RuneQuest 3 was a modestly complete world pack for the Byzantine empire.

Using Mythras with Shores of Korantia will give a pretty much complete world with cults, prices, social strata, politics, and so on in a way similar to the way RuneQuest 3 did. It uses the new kinds of magic, but it's not necessarily as much about monsters as about humanity. It may have more of the kind of the monsters that manipulate man's politics, while pretending to help elite men, for example demons. Also there are orcs and mermen operating in man's sphere on a par with man. It can be a maritime game like RQ3 offered with Byzantium, but it's up to you whether your campaign stays ashore.

The giant outrigger canoe you see to the right was made by my free-diving fisherman character, called Flies with Swordfish, in our maritime campaign set in the Shores of Korantia.
Who to be or not to be. That is the question. --Jeffspeare
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Re: Sorcery/Theism Changes. Balanced or not?

Postby camocoffey » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:22 am

Balanced against each other? Probably; playtesting may throw back some unexpected concerns. Balanced against everyone else? Almost certainly not: one of the main weaknesses of Sorcery is typically low Magnitude spells; and one of Theism's is the constrained Magic Point recovery. If your three magic systems are going to be Sorcery, Theism, and Mysticism, with two of those significantly improved, then your Mystic players are going to complain at you. And anyone without magic at all will really be complaining; I find that non-magicians are already a little hard done by in Mythras, and your proposal only widens that gap.
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Re: Sorcery/Theism Changes. Balanced or not?

Postby Bilharzia » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:58 pm

I would try the rules as they are, it very much depends I think on the world surrounding the players - so that depends on your design and what the players will face as challenges. On priests recovering their pool - I've allowed portable shrines to be carried around and some of the Devotional Pool to be recovered using the shrine, the kid of thing I mean is the shrine you see Maximus using at the start of Gladiator, this is something a priest could take around with him.
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Re: Sorcery/Theism Changes. Balanced or not?

Postby raleel » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:09 pm

Morvar wrote:Hello!

First of all, sorry for my bad English!
In my homebrew Fantasy World are 3 different Kinds of Magic.
Two of them use “the Source” on a direct and indirect way.
Mages get Power directly from “The Source”.
People with “True Faith” get Power from the Gods, who take the Power from “The Source” and modify them with their Spirit.
The last one use their inner strength to push their body and mind over the human spectrum.

In RQ6 Terms I want to use Mysticism for the last one.
Sorcery for Mages and Theism for “True Faith”.
But here is my Problem:

Because Mages and Priest use the Same Source on different ways, it is not logically to me, that Priests are so mighty (Magnitude = Devotion/10) against Sorcerer.
And Priest only get their Pool for casting back, if they are in a holy place….
Both doesn’t fit to my world. A worshipper of the Sun God should be able to go on a quest in the darkness…

What if both (sorcerer/Priest) get the same MP Regeneration? And on the other side, Mages get Magnitude in the same way like Priests. But Priest get an additional +1 for all Miracles and +2 on holy ground?

I hope you understand what I mean. I apologize again for my bad English.


I would try to address the issues you are having directly. It is Your Mythras afterall, and you can do what you like with it.
  • Nothing says Priests can only get back magic points at holy places. In fact, many games allow generation at will. Check out the Recovering Magic Points rules on p116-117 of Mythras. Normally, Self recovery (i.e. no need to be anywhere special or do anything special) allows for it. You get to flavor it as you like. having them both generate magic points the same _is already_ in the rules as written.
  • if you do want to have a difference, having priests generate 1 magic point per day, then 1 magic point per hour at their veneration point might be interesting.
  • something similar could be for sorcerers. perhaps one gets it from veneration and the other from magic locations.
  • note, the _devotional pool_ is at magic places only. that's not the totality of their magic points.

you are right that sorcery has a lower magnitude by default, but it certainly doesn't have to. He, frankly, has more options with his shaping that JUST doing magnitude. Consider a priest and a sorcerer. Both have skills of 80 in their relevant magical skills (exhort, devotion, invocation, shaping), and both have 15s in their relevant casting attributes, and 15 POW

the priest pulls out a sunspear. It hits one target, has a range of 80m, and does 4d6 points of damage to every location with magnitude of 8. Ouch.

The sorcerer thinks about this with Wrack. Having 8 shaping to play with, he can make the spell a touch spell of magnitude 8 and 1d8 damage that lasts (meaning, he can keep hitting people with it) for 15 minutes, or he can make it a ranged spell of _15km_ - way outside of his sight for hitting a person. So he decides instead he's going to shoot at 1500m (20x the range of the sunspear) and he can hit 4 targets for 1d8 damage for 15 minutes. All for 2 points of magic. Granted, that's easy to counter (it's magnitude 1, after all), but you can hit this stuff at such a range that they must have passive protections up to counter it.

this is only really the simplest of examples on this. Sorcery's power is in it's flexibility - it can combine and do things that theism just can't even manage. Compare Heart Seizure (3MP cost, range meters, causes death) to Transmogrify (to substance, lets pick water). A sorcerer who has transmogrify to water on the scale of casting time as Heart Seizure can turn a small room of people all to water, with no returning, at that range.

edit: the book example has a devotional pool for "at will" spell casting, as well as prepaying spells with your god. so I wanted to be clear on that. You can do it as you like :)
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Re: Sorcery/Theism Changes. Balanced or not?

Postby camocoffey » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:40 am

raleel wrote:The sorcerer ... (casts Wrack) ... at 1500m (20x the range of the sunspear) and he can hit 4 targets for 1d8 damage for 15 minutes. All for 2 points of magic.

Tiny correction: 3 MPs required. Base 1, +1 for each spell component manipulated. Still magnificent, of course! (Unless you're the victim...)
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